This happened right after our end of year evaluations. I finally got promoted from mid level to senior. Most of the seniors around me got Senior II or Staff. One girl on our team, who is junior, was not with us.
Someone joked that you must really suck to stay junior for five years when it is usually automatic. Then people started saying she always sounds clueless in stand up, doing that happy go lucky “tee hee I made a silly bug and fixed it” thing. They acted like it meant she did not know what she was doing.
I just laughed nervously to fit in.
For context I have been trying to associate more with the seniors since networking helps your career. I have often felt excluded socially and even from important meetings. I am the only South Asian and I originally came here as an international student, so I always feel like I have to be mindful that I am sort of a guest in the country. So I understood why maybe it took me longer to be included.
My desk is next to hers. She has always been friendly with me. She is also the only woman on the team and I guess she does not really socialise with the others because her hobbies are yoga and dance while they all play hockey or bouldering. She also does not get invited to architectural or strategy meetings, which happened to me earlier too.
The way she talks is very cheerful and happy go lucky, like some women naturally do. She exaggerates her own mistakes with things like “I cannot believe I missed this silly thing,” even when it is nothing unusual because every developer makes mistakes. It is part of the process. It is not like she merged something broken. She just admits things openly while others hide theirs.
I was initially hoping to help her get included more but I was also trying to balance things because spending too much time with her earlier maybe made me seem less part of the group.
After the chat ended everyone went to their desks and I had to leave the building. I turned the opposite direction and saw her hiding behind the wall listening. We made eye contact. I did not say anything.
Later she told me privately that she was disappointed I did not speak up. She looked upset the whole day.
She is one of the smartest people I have worked with. We are the only ones with Masters degrees from very selective schools and published academic work. Many times she and I have to quietly rework system designs after the seniors make wrong aasumptions. She understands concurrency, embedded development style optimisation and how things actually function under the hood. Managers never see any of it.
I kind of understand why I was not always included, but with her I am genuinely puzzled. She is white and was born here, same as them.
So AITA for keeping quiet. I did not insult her but I also did not defend her. I wanted to finally fit in with the group but now I feel like I hurt the one colleague who actually treats me like an equal but she hasn’t taken steps on her own to help herself.
>I kind of understand why I was not always included, but with her I am genuinely puzzled. She is white and was born here, same as them.
She is a woman in a men’s world… congrats, you’re one of them
This is it. She’s not part of the “men’s club” and it sounds like that is the entire problem. It’s why she tends to own up to her mistakes and down play her skills, because being obviously better than male coworkers can likely cause resentment, which will hold her back as well. It really is a no win situation for women in male dominant fields.
YTA
You didn’t trash her, but you stayed quiet while people talked shit about someone you know is good. You were trying to fit in. Apologize and support her going forward.
YTA. I get being uncomfortable because you want to fit in, but in saying nothing, you are complicit. You are supporting this “good ol’ boys club”. Be brave because she’s within her rights to file a complaint with HR which may have a negative impact on you.
YTA
ANYTIME you are willing to do things or not do things just to fit in (especially at someone else’s expense) you are an asshole.
It would not have been hard to bring up everything you just listed about your colleague to these other senior members in the same way you just spoke about her accomplishments here.
“She is far from clueless. Did you know she has a Masters degree from this school, and has published work? She’s an amazing team member and very helpful and friendly.”
That’s it. That’s all you had to do.
But networking and selling one’s soul to move up is more important.
As for why she has not been recognized? Well, you just found out with their behavior. They’re sexist and don’t respect women. She’s too bubbly (which probably just means normal and friendly).
She’s definitely more bubbly but they seem to mostly ignore it.
I actually like that about her it is very chill and low stress. When I discuss stuff with her even to correct her work or her correcting mine it feels natural and not personal unlike with others and we learn from each other and have an intellectual conversation
You know, you didn’t just stand there and do nothing. You also laughed, showing agreement with your sentiments. That shows you don’t have enough character to stand by your convictions.
I want you to think about what you just wrote. You say she doesn’t take steps on her own by helping herself. By laughing at colleagues? Because she doesn’t like hockey? Because she admits she makes mistakes? You’ve yet to list any one thing that should mean she shouldn’t be promoted. You, out of most people, should know what’s it like to be a minority and treated like you’re inferior because of it. The good old boys club is real here. If you can’t beat them, might as well join them. Right?
Do better. Be better. Learn to leave a room when people are being offensive.
YTA. It sounds like you’re not seeing the blatant sexism in your workplace: the way she’s excluded, isolated, and openly insulted in ways that the men aren’t. You are actively taking part in that. You are proving that you belong there by reinforcing the idea that she doesn’t.
There’s some pretty easy ways to include her – asking why she isn’t invited to meetings, pointing out that her mistakes are common ones everyone makes, reminding folks of her masters and her experience, thanking her for work she’s done using specific examples. The hardest part is getting over the social hurdle of disagreeing with people around you.
NTA for not sticking up for her as you both are grown, but YTA a little bc you know they’re bullies and still hang around them because you’d rather be IN than OUT with them.
Soft YTA. I (as a woman) do believe it’s on me to stand up for myself, which your post says she hasn’t. Based on some of the complaints made against her, sounds like she doesn’t always communicate professionally, which is definitely on her: That said, when you heard people saying things you believed were untrue about her, having integrity means you point those things out because they were wrong. It’s not your job to be her white knight, but facts are facts.
Yes soft YTA. You do not need to find excuses for this individual but if there are things that you feel are being said that are inaccurate about a person, you should correct them or offer your perspective. Not speaking up to not highlight yourself is cowardly. Yes some will say it’s not your fight, but it is your soul and sometimes silence is just as deafening as agreeing.
YTA. “I kind of understand why I was not always included, but with her I am genuinely puzzled. She is white and was born here, same as them.” Sexism. That’s the word you’re looking for. Tech is notoriously sexist. Her career is actively being hindered by the sexism, and when the chance to stick up for her arose, you said nothing, when you know she’s one of the best people there.
How would you have felt if they were talking shit about South Asians, and she just laughed along?
It was nervous laughter not laughing along.
I doubt she would be the type of person to do that.
But I understand your point, I’ll do better. I just thought it wasn’t such an issue in the west certainly not among educated folk when it comes to work. I get that was a factor when it comes to non work social stuff.